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	<title>Comments on: Why are we doing this?</title>
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	<description>We Needle. You Decide.</description>
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		<title>By: Needlenose &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Your tax dollars at work</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1825</link>
		<dc:creator>Needlenose &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Your tax dollars at work</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1825</guid>
		<description>[...] Back in September when Shrubya warned of economic doomsday if we didn&#8217;t immediately give $700 billion to the financial services execs with no-strings attached, Fubar smelled a rat. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Back in September when Shrubya warned of economic doomsday if we didn&#8217;t immediately give $700 billion to the financial services execs with no-strings attached, Fubar smelled a rat. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: fubar</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>fubar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>I agree with Rick that &lt;i&gt;something&lt;/i&gt; has to be done to help unclog the credit markets, but throwing $700B at the Treasury Secretary with no oversight and no accountability doesn&#039;t even pass the smell test. Fortunately, the Dems seem to have grown a spine on this (perhaps emboldened by the screaming shit-fit fiscally conservative Republicans -- people like Newt Gingrich -- have thrown). Chris Dodd&#039;s counter-proposal was a good start and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/working-draft-house-bailout-plan/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this draft plan&lt;/a&gt; looks even better.

Rick &lt;i&gt;presumes&lt;/i&gt; that this will be used to buy low-tranch mortgage-backed securities, but there was (and still is) nothing in the proposals to &lt;i&gt;require&lt;/i&gt; this. If you go by the original proposal (which was the only thing floating around when I originally wrote that post) the Treasury is basically given complete discretion on the what, who, where, and how much.

There&#039;s also no indication as to whether the price paid will be &#039;market&#039; or &#039;hold to maturity&#039; prices. That could make the difference between taxpayers ever breaking even on this deal.

The last thing I&#039;ll say is that there was a radio interview a couple days ago with a former Japanese finance official (Japan basically went through the same thing a dozen years ago). His sentiment was that no amount of government interaction at this level is going to make much of a difference. Instead of freeing up the credit markets, what happened in Japan was that financial institutions hoarded whatever cash was thrown their way, if only to improve their balance sheets. Most sat on it for the next decade, leading to basic stagflation and caused deep structural issues in the Japanese economy that they still live with today (that&#039;s how the infamous 0% prime-rate came to be -- and even &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; didn&#039;t help). 

His point was that the best way to invest money is to do whatever it takes to bring up the value of the underlying real-estate, so all the securities that rely on it will rise as well -- by doing the sort of thing that needs to be done to increase property values and reduce mortgage defaults. Offering incentives to builders and buyers, to get the real-estate pump going again so this stuff is worth something. That&#039;s the only way you work your way out of the hole, not by handing off some cash to banks and hoping they circulate it.

Sounded like pretty good advice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Rick that <i>something</i> has to be done to help unclog the credit markets, but throwing $700B at the Treasury Secretary with no oversight and no accountability doesn&#8217;t even pass the smell test. Fortunately, the Dems seem to have grown a spine on this (perhaps emboldened by the screaming shit-fit fiscally conservative Republicans &#8212; people like Newt Gingrich &#8212; have thrown). Chris Dodd&#8217;s counter-proposal was a good start and <a href="http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/working-draft-house-bailout-plan/" rel="nofollow">this draft plan</a> looks even better.</p>
<p>Rick <i>presumes</i> that this will be used to buy low-tranch mortgage-backed securities, but there was (and still is) nothing in the proposals to <i>require</i> this. If you go by the original proposal (which was the only thing floating around when I originally wrote that post) the Treasury is basically given complete discretion on the what, who, where, and how much.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also no indication as to whether the price paid will be &#8216;market&#8217; or &#8216;hold to maturity&#8217; prices. That could make the difference between taxpayers ever breaking even on this deal.</p>
<p>The last thing I&#8217;ll say is that there was a radio interview a couple days ago with a former Japanese finance official (Japan basically went through the same thing a dozen years ago). His sentiment was that no amount of government interaction at this level is going to make much of a difference. Instead of freeing up the credit markets, what happened in Japan was that financial institutions hoarded whatever cash was thrown their way, if only to improve their balance sheets. Most sat on it for the next decade, leading to basic stagflation and caused deep structural issues in the Japanese economy that they still live with today (that&#8217;s how the infamous 0% prime-rate came to be &#8212; and even <i>that</i> didn&#8217;t help). </p>
<p>His point was that the best way to invest money is to do whatever it takes to bring up the value of the underlying real-estate, so all the securities that rely on it will rise as well &#8212; by doing the sort of thing that needs to be done to increase property values and reduce mortgage defaults. Offering incentives to builders and buyers, to get the real-estate pump going again so this stuff is worth something. That&#8217;s the only way you work your way out of the hole, not by handing off some cash to banks and hoping they circulate it.</p>
<p>Sounded like pretty good advice.</p>
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		<title>By: greenboy</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1290</link>
		<dc:creator>greenboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1290</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been going back and forth on this for awhile, and I think I am sort of in-between rick freedman &amp; fubar&#039;s positions.  Some type of bailout is needed.  However, some asses need to be kicked as well.  If we bail out Wall Street by acquiring their bad paper, but leave the same venal management in place, we&#039;ll just be back here again in a few years with the next irrationally exuberant bubble.  Worse, the same Repug fuckup politicians and extremist reactionary think-tanks will have emerged unscathed, in a position to screw us again in a few years with their &#039;gubbermint is bad&#039; rhetoric.  Some execs, firms and pols really need to be punished as the strings in the bailout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been going back and forth on this for awhile, and I think I am sort of in-between rick freedman &#038; fubar&#8217;s positions.  Some type of bailout is needed.  However, some asses need to be kicked as well.  If we bail out Wall Street by acquiring their bad paper, but leave the same venal management in place, we&#8217;ll just be back here again in a few years with the next irrationally exuberant bubble.  Worse, the same Repug fuckup politicians and extremist reactionary think-tanks will have emerged unscathed, in a position to screw us again in a few years with their &#8216;gubbermint is bad&#8217; rhetoric.  Some execs, firms and pols really need to be punished as the strings in the bailout.</p>
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		<title>By: rick freedman</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1289</link>
		<dc:creator>rick freedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1289</guid>
		<description>Sorry, fubar, but I&#039;ve got to disagree with this on a number of levels.  First, the idea that this is an example of Klein&#039;s Shock Doctrine (which I think is a load of hooey anyway) misjudges the gravity of the global financial situation.  With the outflow of about $200B from money market funds last week, the ability of banks to fund their daily obligations was threatened, making the &quot;empty ATM&quot; threat (which some call a replay of the WMDs in Iraq) a reality. The inability to get consumer credit has already decimated the auto industry, has frozen the mortgage market even for those with good credit and the ability to pay, and has exacerbated the plunge in home values.  The credit freeze will, if left unchecked, murder small businesses that need credit much more than large corporations, which typically have cash stashed, and so kill any chance at an employment recovery.  The clauses calling for no oversight that fubar quotes have already been negotiated out, and will not stand in the final bill. fubar is also incorrect in stating that this bailout purchases credit default swaps - in fact, it enables the purchase of any mortgage-backed securities, and will be used to purchase high-risk &quot;bad paper&quot; (low tranch mortgage-backed securities) which, while seized up by the current credit freeze, have significant underlying value (even in the current crisis, defaults in the lowest-tranch securitized mortgages run at 24%, and the underlying mortgage assets (homes) would have to fall to 0 for these assets to lose all value).  His comment that  the taxpayer gets nothing but &quot;stability&quot; for the money is factually incorrect...in fact, these assets have an excellent chance of being profitable once the credit markets regain confidence and begin loaning again.  The concept of a &quot;bad bank&quot;, which isolates &quot;stuck paper&quot; and therefore allows banks and other credit entities to resume their role of extending and servicing credit (rather than working out bad loans and trying to price frozen assets), is well accepted and was proven in the savings and loan crisis - expensive, perhaps unfair, but effective.

While this is unpalatable, and a direct cause of the Republican deregulation obsession, crony appointments of the Bush regime (anyone remember SEC Chairman Pitt, who had to resign under a cloud in the first Bush term?), and the misguided &quot;mark to market&quot; rules that forced firms to mark assets at 0 when credit  seized up,  the idea that this is a &quot;phony baloney&quot; crisis, and that it will not benefit families, the unemployed, retired folks living on market interest and gains, and stressed mortgage-holders, is simply incorrect. I agree with Dems that this needs significant oversight, foreclosure protection, and regulatory language that protects taxpayers in the event of profits, but a populist movement to stop this action would be a grave error, in my judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, fubar, but I&#8217;ve got to disagree with this on a number of levels.  First, the idea that this is an example of Klein&#8217;s Shock Doctrine (which I think is a load of hooey anyway) misjudges the gravity of the global financial situation.  With the outflow of about $200B from money market funds last week, the ability of banks to fund their daily obligations was threatened, making the &#8220;empty ATM&#8221; threat (which some call a replay of the WMDs in Iraq) a reality. The inability to get consumer credit has already decimated the auto industry, has frozen the mortgage market even for those with good credit and the ability to pay, and has exacerbated the plunge in home values.  The credit freeze will, if left unchecked, murder small businesses that need credit much more than large corporations, which typically have cash stashed, and so kill any chance at an employment recovery.  The clauses calling for no oversight that fubar quotes have already been negotiated out, and will not stand in the final bill. fubar is also incorrect in stating that this bailout purchases credit default swaps &#8211; in fact, it enables the purchase of any mortgage-backed securities, and will be used to purchase high-risk &#8220;bad paper&#8221; (low tranch mortgage-backed securities) which, while seized up by the current credit freeze, have significant underlying value (even in the current crisis, defaults in the lowest-tranch securitized mortgages run at 24%, and the underlying mortgage assets (homes) would have to fall to 0 for these assets to lose all value).  His comment that  the taxpayer gets nothing but &#8220;stability&#8221; for the money is factually incorrect&#8230;in fact, these assets have an excellent chance of being profitable once the credit markets regain confidence and begin loaning again.  The concept of a &#8220;bad bank&#8221;, which isolates &#8220;stuck paper&#8221; and therefore allows banks and other credit entities to resume their role of extending and servicing credit (rather than working out bad loans and trying to price frozen assets), is well accepted and was proven in the savings and loan crisis &#8211; expensive, perhaps unfair, but effective.</p>
<p>While this is unpalatable, and a direct cause of the Republican deregulation obsession, crony appointments of the Bush regime (anyone remember SEC Chairman Pitt, who had to resign under a cloud in the first Bush term?), and the misguided &#8220;mark to market&#8221; rules that forced firms to mark assets at 0 when credit  seized up,  the idea that this is a &#8220;phony baloney&#8221; crisis, and that it will not benefit families, the unemployed, retired folks living on market interest and gains, and stressed mortgage-holders, is simply incorrect. I agree with Dems that this needs significant oversight, foreclosure protection, and regulatory language that protects taxpayers in the event of profits, but a populist movement to stop this action would be a grave error, in my judgement.</p>
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		<title>By: More debt?!?! My Money!!!! &#171;</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1286</link>
		<dc:creator>More debt?!?! My Money!!!! &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 05:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1286</guid>
		<description>[...] though, has anyone looked at what is to be proposed in that proposal? Not only is it wastin&#8217; two thousand dollars from every man, woman and child [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] though, has anyone looked at what is to be proposed in that proposal? Not only is it wastin&#8217; two thousand dollars from every man, woman and child [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Needlenose &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8230; and then they hope to make a &#8220;clean&#8221; getaway</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1267</link>
		<dc:creator>Needlenose &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8230; and then they hope to make a &#8220;clean&#8221; getaway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1267</guid>
		<description>[...] the subject of the outrage described by Fubar below, the New York Times reports tonight: Congressional Democrats began to set their own terms on Sunday [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the subject of the outrage described by Fubar below, the New York Times reports tonight: Congressional Democrats began to set their own terms on Sunday [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Swopa</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1266</link>
		<dc:creator>Swopa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1266</guid>
		<description>Well said, Fubar.  I don&#039;t do these posts well, so I&#039;m glad you stepped up to say what needed saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Fubar.  I don&#8217;t do these posts well, so I&#8217;m glad you stepped up to say what needed saying.</p>
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		<title>By: triozyg</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1262</link>
		<dc:creator>triozyg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 01:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1262</guid>
		<description>Write your member of Congress, don&#039;t trust the press releases, they need to hear it loud and clear.  I sent 4 letters today -- my 2 senators, my rep and Pelosi.  Do it for the children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Write your member of Congress, don&#8217;t trust the press releases, they need to hear it loud and clear.  I sent 4 letters today &#8212; my 2 senators, my rep and Pelosi.  Do it for the children.</p>
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		<title>By: Mud</title>
		<link>http://needlenose.com/wp/2008/09/21/why-are-we-doing-this/comment-page-1/#comment-1260</link>
		<dc:creator>Mud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.needlenose.com/wp/?p=323#comment-1260</guid>
		<description>http://thepage.time.com/pelosi-s...ancial-markets/

Pelosi Statement on Legislation to Address Crisis in Financial Markets



Washington, D.C. â€” Speaker Nancy Pelosi issued the following statement today as Congress and the White House work to craft legislation to address the crisis in our financial markets:

â€œCongress will respond to the financial markets crisis by taking action this week in a bipartisan manner that will protect the taxpayersâ€™ interests. The Administrationâ€™s $700 billion proposal does not include the necessary safeguards. Democrats believe a responsible solution should include independent oversight, protections for homeowners and constraints on excessive executive compensation.

â€œWe will not simply hand over a $700 billion blank check to Wall Street and hope for a better outcome. Democrats will act responsibly to insulate Main Street from Wall Street.

â€œAs we proceed to deal with this crisis, this is clear recognition that the party is over for the Bush Administrationâ€™s anything goes, failed economic policies that have damaged our economy, undermined the middle class and further pointed out the need for a New Direction.â€


................

We do not appease economic terrorists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://thepage.time.com/pelosi-s...ancial-markets/" rel="nofollow">http://thepage.time.com/pelosi-s&#8230;ancial-markets/</a></p>
<p>Pelosi Statement on Legislation to Address Crisis in Financial Markets</p>
<p>Washington, D.C. â€” Speaker Nancy Pelosi issued the following statement today as Congress and the White House work to craft legislation to address the crisis in our financial markets:</p>
<p>â€œCongress will respond to the financial markets crisis by taking action this week in a bipartisan manner that will protect the taxpayersâ€™ interests. The Administrationâ€™s $700 billion proposal does not include the necessary safeguards. Democrats believe a responsible solution should include independent oversight, protections for homeowners and constraints on excessive executive compensation.</p>
<p>â€œWe will not simply hand over a $700 billion blank check to Wall Street and hope for a better outcome. Democrats will act responsibly to insulate Main Street from Wall Street.</p>
<p>â€œAs we proceed to deal with this crisis, this is clear recognition that the party is over for the Bush Administrationâ€™s anything goes, failed economic policies that have damaged our economy, undermined the middle class and further pointed out the need for a New Direction.â€</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>We do not appease economic terrorists.</p>
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